Stu, I couldn’t agree more.

I was reading a paper awhile back by a Melbourne University Professor who looked at cultural intergration issues by International Students in Australia. When we did his research, he found that a big reason why international students had problems making aussie friends is that most of the time there were no aussies on campus after class. Most Aussies done there thing outside of Uni. I also believe in the Australian context with Aussie students, casual employment means uni students spent alot of time away from uni.

Is that the case in America that americans spend alot of their time with part time work? It would be interesting if the financial pressure wasn’t there for many aussies whether that would improve the campus culture as the students would have time to “wonder” around campus. I know in Canberra at both the big unis here – most aussies seem to be “running” off to class, work etc. The campus culture is lacking and is quite poor.

I’m not sure how prevalent part-time work is for the undergrads – but they are required to live in dorms for a year or so, so even if they have to work, having a bunch of friends next door and down the corridor makes it easy to catch up with people.

The law students here seem too busy to take up part time work (my student visa conditions aside, I know I’d be pushing my luck if I got a job for even one day a week), but a lot of them do some work on campus as research assistants or teaching assistants — again, a lot easier to do when you’re on campus.

I think the financial pressures on US students are even more – in contrast to Aus, the private unis here tend to be the better ones, and the really really expensive ones (imagine graduating with a couple hundred grand in debt!).

I don’t think you can compare Asian students with Australians in this context.

The main reason that Australians study in Australia and in their own city is the quality and low cost of the education system – there is no compelling reason to study elsewhere.

High quality university education is not available in most Asian countries (Singapore, Korea and Japan being exceptions). A lot of Asians study overseas because of political / regulatory barriers, like the NEP in Malaysia, or because there’s too much competition for places at good uni’s at home (like China). And it’s also important to note, that it’s mainly the well-off or those on scholarships who are able to afford overseas study.

I agree that Aussie high school students are unlikely to think about studying overseas. This is really a question of exposure (and also one of cost – only the wealthy could afford a full 3 year undergrad degree overseas, or the supersmart on scholarships).

When I was in Year 12 I always knew I would study in China, but this was because I had been exposed to people who had studied there and I myself had a strong interest in the country. There are also quite a few courses at uni that require students to spend one year overseas as part of their degree. And the exchange programs at Aussie uni’s are good in that you only have to pay HECS for course fees, even if you study at Harvard.

I guess this also comes back to the poor quality of so-called “careers advisors” at high school.

And this is all why you should have gone to ANU instead!

The reason Australian students go to the closest university is money. They can live at home with their parents, usually rent free, with their parents around to provide food, washing (usually) etc…

Most students in Australia also have jobs, to earn money, to do other things. If they lived on campus they would have rent/food etc… costs to included, so they would have to work twice as much to do as many activities. That or go into even more debt.

You said it yourself, 200k debt in the US, or 20k debt here in AU?

I don’t doubt that it is a much better experience living on campus around everyone else there. But is it worth 200k to you?

What a lot of aussies do is take off overseas and travel over summer, either working temporarily overseas somewhere, or just backpacking. I guess we chose this over the living on campus experience. In general you don’t find many Americans traveling as much as Australian uni students.

Kev, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I don’t think you intended to say a statement as broad as “there is no compelling reason to study elsewhere”. There are many compelling reasons, it’s just that our culture and way-of-thinking doesn’t really lend itself to considering these reasons.

I agree that the issue of cost is a valid one, but I think this barrier is cultural more so than an insurmountable one. Otherwise, how do the millions of Americans put themselves through uni? There are more than a few great public universities here (the University of California system has several, for instance). While undoubtedly there are more rich people in the well-regarded private universities, there are also many sources of funding, including full scholarships. The best universities are making it a policy that no student should be turned away because they can’t afford it (awarding means-tested scholarships). So I don’t think only wealthy foreigners can afford a full 4 year US undergrad degree. And you don’t have to be “supersmart” to get a scholarship (except perhaps to get in the very best institutions) – the fact that you’re an international student, and that US unis value diversity, is a plus in the application process.

But let’s put America aside for a moment. What about the UK? Or other countries? (Incidentally, even the Americans are studying overseas because it’s cheaper.) There are quite a number of unis out there of comparable quality to Aussie unis.

I think comparing Asians with Australians and noting the differences is valid. With Asians, even people from countries with solid world-class universities, like Singapore, Korea and Japan (as you pointed out) — consider going overseas. Speaking with a Singaporean friend, their high school students aim for the Ivies and Oxbridge over NUS. South Korea has schools designed specifically for getting their students into Harvard. My Japanese friends tell me that a US education is highly regarded back at home. These countries all have their own great universities, but they still look to overseas as one of their options. In Australia, people don’t really consider studying overseas as an option at the undergrad level.

Asians parents also, in general, give education a much higher priority than other cultures. I have seen a lot of middle-class Asian families – not particularly rich, mind you, but very similar to an Australian middle-class family – send all their kids overseas to study. This is expensive. Doubtless, they have to sacrifice a lot to do it. In Australia, we often pay for our own education and therefore need to work. Now, I’m not saying one cultural value is necessarily better than the other, but the point is that it’s a cultural thing. It is praticably possible to do it because the middle-class in the developing world, with fragile currencies, have found a way to do it.

I know that we have exchange semesters or years, and people often come back from them saying it was one of the best things they did at uni. And we travel a lot. But this doesn’t mean that all this should preclude us from considering spending 3 or 4 years abroad, or even interstate. I think it’s a parochial to think otherwise. We have good unis, but there are a lot of other good unis out there. And a lot of better unis. It’s not going to be the right option for everyone, but it should still be an option.

Also, why do we only really consider going to the uni in the nearest major city, when Americans are happy to travel all around the country? What’s different? Why don’t we have a resident uni culture? In the absence of one, maybe we should consider going overseas.

This article is also an interesting one about US unis exporting their education systems. (It only served to remind me of the ill-fated UNSW Singapore.)

Maybe things will change. Some schools in NSW now offer the international baccalaureate instead of the HSC. As an internationally recognised program, it is suited for applying to overseas unis.

Mark – point taken about ANU. Perhaps that why it always seems to rank as Australia’s number 1 uni in world ranking charts (much to the outrage of the other sandstone unis). The only problem with ANU is that it’s in Canberra. :)

Ferni is right. The cost issue is the main reason.

I would have loved to have studied a full degree overseas. I know the Australian uni system doesn’t stack up vs the US. But from a cost / benefit point of view it’s not very feasible for the large majority. Going to uni itself is a hard decision for quite a few students, who find it too expensive. As a 17 year old with no savings, the only way I and most other people would be able to afford studying 3 years overseas would be taking out a personal loan. Not to mention the increased fees and exchange rate risk.

Yes in Asia you have Daddy’s money, but it ain’t like that in Oz. So after 3 years I would have a much larger debt compared to my HECS total, and if I’m back in Australia I might get a more well paid job, but it’s not going to be much of a higher start salary. It’s not a self-indulgence that I or most Aussies could afford. The fact that most Americans will graduate with a debt is not a valid comparison. It just shows the extreme user-pays workings of the US education system. While I support an element of user-pays for education in Oz, I hope it never becomes like the US, because it will marginalise the less well-off. University should never be a luxury, and it is increasingly so.

– Of course the cost is not insurmountable. But it’s not very rational when you can get a HECS-funded education and graduate with a similar or slightly less-higher starting salary vs the overseas educated dude. I’m a huge fan of overseas education and all of the non-monetary benefits (cultural understanding, global awareness, language etc), and I’ve been fortunate to study overseas twice. But at the end of the day, to the large majority the Vitamin M issue and the resulting cost / benefit equation doesn’t stack up. Even today, while I’ve always had an ambition to study in the US, the opportunity cost is just too great. I would have to completely ignore the economic calculations to do it.

– It’s different in Asia and I don’t think you can compare. In Australia, if you go to Harvard, people will respect you, but you won’t necessarily get a better job because of it. Asia is different because it’s much more competitive and the quality gap b/t local unis and foreign unis is huge (excluding Sing, Korea, Japan). So there is a real employment benefit to getting an overseas degree – employers differentiate a lot more on you uni in Asia vs Oz. Moreover, they place much more importance on your education, whereas in Oz extracurricular activities are just as important. In Malaysia if you go to the state uni, you’re sentenced to a pretty uninspiring career. Likewise in China, if you don’t go to Beida, Qinghua, Fudan or Jiaoda, it”ll be very tough for you.

It’s much less so in Oz because most of our uni’s are good, and there is less emphasis on university education in Oz in getting ahead – tradies can make excellent livings. Also, cultural issues in Asia like face are important – the fact that you can show-off with children studying overseas and the fact you can afford it.

The reality is however, that a lot of Asian students, barring those who enter i-banking or medicine, would struggle to ever earn back the amount their parents spent on their overseas education. So in order for the culture to change in Oz, you would need Australian parents to agree to fund their children’s study overseas, and not really worry about whether it’s worth it, and ignore the fact that HECS-education is so much cheaper with a similar starting salary outcome.

– Why do we only go to the city uni’s? Well we only have a small number of uni’s so there are only a few counted as ‘prestigious’. And again, cost is a major issue. If you have to support yourself, why uproot and go to another state, when you may already be living in the state which has the best uni’s in Oz? America’s different as they have top uni’s all around the country. Frankly speaking, only UNSW, Sydney, UWA, ANU, Melbourne, UQ and Monash could be considered top tier. There are probably more uni’s of a higher quality in one single state in the US.

Kev, I’ll respond paragraph by paragraph.

#1 – I understand your point, but my main contention is that Australians don’t even apply for overseas universities. I doubt many Asians who apply for the Ivies could afford the tuition fees, but as I said, undergraduates are heavily or completely subsidised by scholarships and other forms of financial aid (whether US or from their home country). I am not saying that people must study overseas, I am saying it should be an option. The fact that it’s too expensive is no excuse for not applying because you can apply for financial aid. I totally understand how you might not be able to go if you can’t get aid… but ultimately you have to be in it to win it.

#2 – It’s not a question of daddy’s money. Two of my flatmates in Sydney came from middle-class families which are not by any stretch of the imagination rich in an upper class sense. That all international students are rich (by our standards) is an outright myth. A sizeable number of Australian families could afford it, but in Australia independence is important, and most parents just aren’t going to pony up the money (like some Asian families will) when the cultural norm is for the kids to pay off their own fees. (On the flipside, of course, is that living out of home builds independence for international students in another way.) It’s not a question of affordability. It’s a question of priorities. Blue collar Asian parents will scrimp and save every penny to give their kids a good education overseas. Other cultures value education, but not to the same extent as other aspects of life which they value.

You’re overstating things when you talk about the US system being an extreme user-pays system. As I said before, there are many reputable public unis here. Undergrad tuition at Berkeley or the University of Virginia, for example, is about $4,500 per semester. That’s comparable to Australia. It’s only the private universities that are expensive. In Australia, the best universities are all public (if only because 90% of all unis are public).

#3 – I have only been talking about undergraduate study. A lot of other factors (such as opportunity cost) will apply when it comes to graduate study because you’re probably foregoing a job to do it. But these days, the majority of people do go for an undergrad degree because a lot of jobs demand it.

#4 – Well you’re forgetting how much emphasis US unis place on admitting students with “the full package”. In NSW, all you need to do to get into uni is to get a UAI score. It’s purely academic (with the exception of med school). The US emphasises a culture of well-roundedness, so I don’t think it’s fair to state that Asian employers “place much more importance on your education” – the best unis aren’t mere academic powerhouses, they are meant to produce well-rounded graduates. And without a university with an adequate support structure, it’s that much more difficult to engage in extracurricular activities or develop the wellroundedness. But it is probably fair to state that Asian employers place a lot of importance on brand name universities. Australia is no different. I have heard stories of certain firms binning resumes simply because the student didn’t go to the “right” university.

Of course if you go to Harvard you won’t necessarily get a better job. But you have to admit that the chances are greatly increased – you have the world-wide brand name recognition and the global alumni network. You also expand where you can work outside of Australia as well. We’re speculating here, but maybe an overseas uni doesn’t give such a big advantage in Australia (I’m not sure that’s true) because there is no culture of valuing overseas education… or maybe it’s because there are relatively few people with an overseas education. But anyway, compare this with Singapore, Korea and Japan…

#5 – But the unis are good in Singapore, Korea and Japan as well.

You’re also looking at a separate issue here. I have never argued that a university education is necessary to get ahead in life. Some of the most successful people in the US never completed their undergraduate degree. And there are some people who want to do things in life that don’t require them going to uni, and that’s totally cool.

#6 – Yes that’s true. But the question is whether we’re happy for this culture to perpetuate. There are several options to address the issue. We could change our unis so they are residence unis, but this seems pretty unlikely to me. Or we could put overseas study as an option on the table. This is much more workable. Cost is an issue that can be addressed in many ways too. For instance, the Singaporean government provides scholarships to its best (high school) students to go overseas — they even provide them to Malaysian nationals. The scholarships are bonded, meaning that in exchange for a full scholarship, the student has to return and work for the government for a period of time. Why don’t we do this, especially at the undergraduate level? You see, we could be too set in our mindset about the way we do things with education.

#7 – Yes, but let’s say you’re in Sydney and you want to study med, or law, or something with a similarly high UAI cutoff – you only apply in NSW. How many people do you know who also apply to Melbourne, Monash and ANU? I know people who just missed the UNSW and USyd law or med cutoff, and instead of going to a “less prestigious” uni in NSW to do law/med, they end up doing some other degree like Biomed Eng at UNSW or USyd… but it doesn’t even enter their mind to try for other “sandstone” unis in other states. (I think this is partially caused by Aussie unis making people specialise as soon as they finish high school, and there is a lot to be said for the benefits of the undergraduate liberal arts education system of the US.)

BTW I think I should say that I am very proud of Aussie unis – but there’s always room for improvement.

And check out this timely Gittins article: Too many uni students cry poor.

“I like to think I care about the plight of the less fortunate. But if you feel sorry for everyone with a hard-luck story you debase the currency. So one of the groups I’ve never had much sympathy for is self-pitying university students.

They’re middle-class kids pretending to be poor and deserving, whereas they’re actually setting themselves up for a life of well-above-average earnings. The few years of their life they spend having to scrimp and save won’t do them any harm. It might teach them to have some concern for the genuinely needy. …

Professor Bruce Chapman of the Australian National University estimates that, on average, the lifetime earnings of graduates are about 70 per cent greater than for those who went only to year 12.

That difference averages more than $1.5 million, even after you allow for the earnings students forgo when they study full-time. And we’re supposed to feel sorry for kids who can’t buy everything they want for a few years while they qualify to enter the winners’ circle?

It’s not just more income that being a graduate gets you, of course.

Graduates tend to have jobs that are cleaner, safer, more secure and more intellectually satisfying. They’re far less likely to be out of work during their lives. And they ought to have had their minds opened to wonders of the world.

It’s these private benefits to possessors of a tertiary education that justify the Government requiring them to contribute towards the cost of that education. But the report finds our uni fees are third highest among developed countries.

Even that’s not quite as bad as it sounds. Our fees are about a third lower than students pay in Japan, about a quarter lower than in the United States and not much higher than in Canada.

But just how deprived are uni students? Well, two-thirds of full-time uni students under 25 live at home, so they’re probably not doing too badly. Some of these would be eligible for the Government’s youth allowance but most wouldn’t because their parents’ incomes are too high.

More than 60 per cent of full-time uni students of all ages have jobs. Forty per cent work up to 19 hours a week, 15 per cent work between 20 and 34 hours a week and 6 per cent work full-time.

Full-time students under 25 who live in group households have earnings averaging only about a third of the earnings of full-time workers under 25 living in group households – $270 a week versus $820 a week. But, on average, the students spend $540 a week each, which is only about 20 per cent less than the $690 a week the workers spend.

That tells us two things. First, the students can’t be greatly deprived and, second, they must still be being propped up by their parents even though they’ve left home. Sounds to me, if anything, it’s the students’ parents we should feel sorry for. But I bet the kids don’t see it that way.”

Gittins article – saw it and agree with most of it. That’s why I don’t have any issues with HECS.

1) Agree that it’s not an excuse for applying, but the reality is that the cost is a huge barrier, even for local uni’s.

2) I have never thought that all international students are rich. However, they are mostly relatively better off in an Asian context. As you note, the middle class in Asia will scrimp every penny, but there is a reason for this, particularly in Malaysia.

In Malaysia, if you’re Chinese, like your 2 flatmates, unless you are in the top 1%, you won’t be able to get into the most popular courses. This is Malaysian law. That’s why so many Malaysian Chinese study in Oz (and accept Singapore govt bonded scholarships), because their opportunities for quality education are very limited. If they had a strong enough domestic uni system with no barriers, then this need would be lessened. You combine the barriers with the cultural importance of education and it’s a strong motivator of behaviour and choice. I just see it with all of my numerous cousins in Malaysia and the varying paths they’ve taken because of their different academic results and financial situations. The parents spend their whole lives working to save up the lump sums and constantly worry about exchange rates. And unfortunately, sometimes when there is more than 1 kid, 1 will go overseas and the others will miss out. This is also why Monash Malaysia is so popular – and it was formed because of this institutional segregation.

6) There are quite a number of Australian govt scholarships and stipends supporting international exchanges, particularly for students taking languages or int’l studies. In fact, the B Inst at UNSW provides financial support for students in their international exchange year. There are quite a number of language stipends too. There was much discussion about this at 2020 too.

On the question of following the Singapore model of providing bonded scholarships, this comes down to political imperative and will. Such a program undoutedly has its merits, but in a cash-starved higher education system, where uni’s themselves are not adequately funded, it would be hard to win support.

7) Quite a lot actually. Emily applied to several medical schools and she has been called on numerous occasions by other med aspirants for hints on entrance exams across Oz. Another person moved to Queensland and studied med at a private uni, while another agreed to take a rural bonded place, whereby she had to practice in the country after graduation. So if they really want to get into a specific course, they will move there.

Finally, while I highly value my Oz uni education, I personally think the Australian uni system is progressively going up sh*t creek. I think the quality of students is good, but is increasingly being diluted because of the reliance on the international dollar. Also there is no where near enough funding for research.

I really think that in order to compete globally in the future, the govt should pick 2 or 3 uni’s and make them super uni’s by pumping huge resources into them. The amount of money we spend on higher ed vs China is a pimple on an elephant’s arse. This has to be detrimental to our future competitiveness. The US philanthropic culture is ideal, but we just don’t have the population or pockets to provide enough support.